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Another referendum in Scotland?

by IdiotSavant Thu Jun 16th, 2022 at 03:28:10 AM EST

The Scottish government has announced plans for another independence referendum:

Nicola Sturgeon plans to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in October next year if her government secures the legal approval to stage it.

Angus Robertson, the Scottish government's constitution secretary, said that provided ample time to pass the necessary legislation, set out the Scottish National party's case and stage a campaign.

The case for Scotland being allowed to decide its own future is clear - its their country, after all, and decisions about it should be made in Edinburgh, not Westminster. But we know how this will go: the Tories in London will refuse to permit any democratic vote. And support for independence will rise accordingly.


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So what does SNP do when the Tories say no?

Wait for the next UK government and ask them?

Hold their own referendum, as devolved government or Catalonia-style?

Just declare independence?

If the Tories think that SNP is going to do nothing when the Tories says no, saying no becomes a safer course, and thus more likely.

by fjallstrom on Fri Jun 17th, 2022 at 07:35:38 AM EST
If they think they could win it, they could hold their own "people's poll" which would not be regarded as legally or constitutionally binding on Westminster and be derided as a glorified opinion poll. Assuming their supporters are more likely to turn out for a non-binding poll, a win could put added pressure on Westminster to concede a form referendum, something the Tories won't allow, but Labour might, specially if they needed SNP support to form a government post the next election.

At the moment everything Boris does is a gift for the SNP, because none of it takes account of Scottish sensibilities and is so obviously English ruling class inspired. If the SNP can't win even an indicative poll now, they never will.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Jun 17th, 2022 at 10:59:39 AM EST
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What if there is a county in Scotland that wants to hold an independence (from Scotland) vote? Etc.

Basic question is how often and in what circumstances an organization unit can review whether it wants to be part of the next higher level. Should households be able to get independence from neighborhoods? Neighborhoods from towns? Towns from counties? Counties from states? States from countries? Countries from federations?

by asdf on Fri Jun 17th, 2022 at 03:41:48 PM EST
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If it is not possible for a region to assert sovereignty, how is it that over 200 independent nations have evolved on this planet? Historically sovereignty often had to be asserted militarily in order to be successful. Latterly it has been sufficient for significant civil resistance or economic cost to be sufficient for a ruling state to cede sovereignty over another region, a process Putin is currently trying to reverse.

Historically, Scotland and England were united by the 1707 act of Union. It would be a relatively simple legal process to repeal that act. The question of how the two states would divide common assets, liabilities, and manage ongoing relations is the hard part.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Jun 18th, 2022 at 10:43:04 AM EST
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It depends on whether a system allows a unilateral separation. Can the Act of Union be repealed by Scotland without England's cooperation?

The EU allows it, although Brexit might trigger some eventual hardening of the withdrawal rules. I think the EU is an outlier among geopolitical arrangements, though.

by asdf on Sat Jun 18th, 2022 at 05:40:35 PM EST
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The 1707 act of Union can only be repealed by the Westminster parliament. The EU is made up of sovereign states who have agreed to pool some of their sovereignty but retain ultimate control. Far from Brexit resulting in a hardening of withdrawal rules, I imagine the behaviour of Hungary will lead some to advocate for a mechanism to suspend and ultimately expel recalcitrant members who do not abide by the rules/law of the EU.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 26th, 2022 at 10:07:55 PM EST
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The 1707 act of Union can only be repealed by the Westminster parliament.

Though that was also true of the 1922 Irish Constitution, at least according to Westminster. But in the end it wasn't their view that mattered.

by IdiotSavant on Mon Jun 27th, 2022 at 05:36:58 AM EST
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Latterly it has been sufficient for significant civil resistance or economic cost to be sufficient for a ruling state to cede sovereignty over another region, a process Putin is currently trying to reverse.
Ukraine was kind of the opposite, no? With Yeltsin being the leading force of the breakup so he could get rid of Gorbachev.
Actually I don't think we can claim that there is a historic trend toward civil resistance leading to a ruling state ceding sovereignty. In the context of a rising USSR and the US still not being the undisputed hegemon of the western world? Sure I can see this happening. But that was India and Suez. Then came Algeria and Vietnam.

Irish unification doesn't seem that unlikely. It would be less of a headache than the status quo for basically everyone, the US would probably support it for domestic reasons and the political tendency that favors it has historically been willing to endure quite a bit of pain.
But Scotland? Who is going to force the UK to release Scotland? The EU really isn't a serious political actor and even if it was, who really wants a second Irish land border situation, but worse? The US has no reason to care. I guess Moscow would send sincere well wishes, but that and eight quid will buy you haggis. So my guess is still: The SNP will demand a referendum, the Tories will say no and that's that for the foreseeable future.

by generic on Sun Jun 19th, 2022 at 11:56:17 AM EST
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Other issues for Scottish independence are the management of UK military infrastructure in Scotland, and the overall economic picture.

Irish unification is easy in comparison.

If the voters carefully consider the options (unlikely given recent voting history everywhere on the Earth), they would insist that the SNP provide an honest and comprehensive explanation about how things will work out. Just like there wasn't for Brexit.

My view is that Scotland is stuck in England for the duration. Although maybe the US would accept a petition for Scottish statehood!

by asdf on Sun Jun 19th, 2022 at 02:44:10 PM EST
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It all depends on how Brexit works out longer term, but the Scottish ruling class have a history of being bought off quite cheaply.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 26th, 2022 at 10:10:27 PM EST
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Ruling class? That requires a bit of explanation, Frank... are you referring to events in the 20th or 21st centuries? Or are you referring to the 18th century?
I have difficulty equating the Holyrood and the SNP with the pro-English lairds.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Jun 27th, 2022 at 04:35:44 PM EST
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So what does SNP do when the Tories say no?

The article notes that they will look at other ways to hold a lawful referendum. This may mean the referendum is indicitive rather than binding. Or it could involve passing legislation with a commencement clause contingent on Westminster granting consent, waiting for it to be refused, and then going to court to try and force it to be granted (the constitutional convention with other colonies being pretty clear about that, and there being obvious reasonableness arguments. Which is probably another reason why the Tories want to gut judicial review).

It doesn't matter if this is immediately unsuccessful, because failure will just be another example of Westminster saying "no", and every time that happens support for independence rises (more time also means the demographic pressure for independence is stronger). Eventually, Westminster is going to have to agree, because a democracy cannot hold a people against their will forever - at least, not if they want to remain a democracy.

(The ultimate pathway is likely electoral - Westminster's electoral system is so cooked and gerrymandered in favour of the tories that Labour's most likely path to government is via SNP support. A referendum is the obvious price. If Labour refuses to pay it, I guess England will just face endless elections until they do)

by IdiotSavant on Sun Jun 19th, 2022 at 12:07:09 AM EST
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I remain of the view that the ultimate determinant of both Irish re-unification and Scottish independence will be the rise and extremism of English nationalism...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 26th, 2022 at 10:13:16 PM EST
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...you gain some:

by Bernard (bernard) on Sat Jun 18th, 2022 at 03:18:24 PM EST
It seems like plan A is to seek a declaratory judgement from the UK Supreme Court. Plan B is to seek a very explicit electoral mandate.

Nicola Sturgeon seeks supreme court ruling on Scottish independence vote

by IdiotSavant on Wed Jun 29th, 2022 at 06:03:28 AM EST
Previous tangles with SCOTUK didn't legitimate Scotland independent of the Crown in parliament, notably Wightman v... Cherry v ... Miller v ... Tragically, neither does Sturgeon. Think about it: Why petition SCOTUK to compel permision of Whitehall to  approve a bill that has not been moved by parliament for vote? It is a bit of a ... counter-intuitve plan to cenure Henry VIII clauses, much less secede wholesale, from the Union.

I consulted, Sturgeon's greatest detractors to get a feel for the procedural drama behind the headlines. (Am surprised that they've convened! 2021's last post resembled a suicide note.)

The problem is that just last year, the Scottish Government itself - while it was inexplicably opposing Martin Keatings' private attempt to establish whether Holyrood could run an indyref without Westminster permission - successfully argued that the matter couldn't possibly be settled until a bill was passed, because the bill could be amended during the Parliamentary process and therefore the court wouldn't actually know what bill it was making a ruling on.

So immediately we're locked in an unbreakable loop - the Supreme Court refuses to make a ruling because there's no final bill to make a ruling on, but there can't be a bill for the Supreme Court to rule on, because the Lord Advocate won't grant permission for it until the Supreme Court has ruled on its legality ...

familiar flow bearing frightening resemblance to schedules extending debate of the "exit dates".
by Cat on Sat Jul 2nd, 2022 at 10:02:56 PM EST
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