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The problems with formal education

by Frank Schnittger Tue Mar 11th, 2025 at 05:12:02 PM EST


Arnold Carton has written a very perceptive OP entitled "The problem with Y" in which he discusses the difficulties boys have in educational environments, with some  research showing that having a Y chromosome can be as big a disadvantage as coming from a deprived social or economic background.


He writes very much from a teacher's perspective, but it got me thinking about my own fairly mixed experiences of being on the receiving end of a lot of formal education, not all of which seemed to benefit me as much as the informal education I got through life, relationships and workplace. It has made me fairly sceptical of what I call the over formalisation and standardisation of the educational and training processes in our society.

What follows started out as a draft comment on his post, but when it exceeded 1,000 words, I decided that I had better post it separately from his post, as it is largely autobiographical and would have detracted from the serious research and teaching experience that went into his post.

---oo0oo---

When I was sent to boarding school in Dublin aged barely 11, I was perhaps one and a half years younger than the average for my class. The educational standard of the school was not a challenge, but the social milieux was. The school was still a single sex school at the time and there was still quite a bit of bullying going on, although I believe it had been even worse before my time in the mid `60's.

It didn't pay to be seen as being too clever in class as that would upset the class bullies who were generally not the brightest. Being a dreamer and a loner also didn't help. Others were much better at networking with the bullies and were often the worst members of their gangs. There was still quite a bit corporal punishment in the school and some of the staff weren't too sympathetic if you got on the wrong side of the wrong people. "Serves you right" was more likely to be their attitude.

My one saving grace was that I was a fast runner and reasonably good at sport - as sporting performance was key to having status in the school and amongst your peers. Far more so than academic achievement which was more likely to see you denigrated as a swot or teacher's pet. On more than one occasion my speed was the one thing that saved me from a hiding. I could hide out until tempers had cooled and it was safe to return.

One teacher - in Maths and French - who was good at neither, was also the rugby coach, and rugby was compulsory for the junior classes. I didn't like rugby because it gave the big (and older) boys a great opportunity to bully the smaller ones. I used to hide out on the wing and kept well away from the rucks and mauls. He regarded me as a softy, which was a criminal offense in his eyes. On one (rare) occasion I got the ball out wide in space and was tearing down the pitch about to score a glorious try. It would have given me the bragging rights for at least a week.

The coach, who was refereeing the scratch training match, stuck out a foot to trip me up and stopped me scoring against his favoured physically robust players. I walked off the pitch and swore I would never play rugby again, and from that day on, no one in the school ever tried to enforce the compulsory rule against me. It helped that I was ok at hockey and the best table tennis player.

In later years, just as I was leaving, the school combined with a girl's school and became co-ed. Some classes had become mixed in advance of the full merger and the girls had a huge civilizing effect on the boys. The bullying culture seemed to vanish as the boys became more interested in girls. The girls were also far more studious, respectful, rule abiding, clean and tidy. It didn't help if you were dirty, untidy, rough, disruptive or appeared stupid in class if you wanted to get on with the girls. I don't know if the girls got much out of the amalgamation, but the boys certainly did, and especially the shyer, less sporting or less physically imposing ones.

I never found studying in school or college easy. My attention far too easily wandered off in entirely different directions. ADHT or the autism spectrum didn't exist in those days, but I suspect in today's world I would have been a candidate for either diagnosis, together with depression when things didn't go my way. I was always unreasonably over ambitious, imagining I could be the best at whatever, without being able to put in the hard yards. Failure didn't sit well with me and my unconscious response was to punish myself emotionally.

I chose psychology as my subject in college despite not having a clue about it.  Even biology was only taught to the girls in their school prior to amalgamation, but I had a sense that I needed to figure out what made people tick. Unfortunately the psychology department was dominated by behaviourists from the Skinner school of (lack of) thought and the whole course was centred on treating students like rats in a Skinner box.

This involved making students sit tests answering inane questions about an inane text they were forced to read, and if you didn't pass the test, you weren't allowed sit the exams. The whole premise of the "psychology" was that the rats were in a closed environment and had no choice. It was a breeding ground for a fascist mentality. I decided to test the theory and refused to complete the facile tests. I was not allowed to sit the exam and was consequently failed. Even an appeal by my sympathetic tutor to the University Council was not upheld.

My parents considered the next 18 months of my life to be my period in the wilderness, hitch hiking around Europe and Morocco and doing odd jobs in London and wherever I could find one. But I feel I learned far more about life outside the sheltered existence of small town rural Ireland and boarding school than I would ever have learned in those psychology classes.

I had begun attending sociology and politics lectures during the expulsion process and 18 months later I was accepted to do an Economic and Social Studies degree starting in second year and thus losing only one year in the process. My parents were suitably relieved although my father formed the quaint idea that I wanted to become a social worker when I knew that was as far away from my skill set as could be. (I later married a social worker instead!).

I became very skilled at getting by on minimum application, doing well in exams after a few days of crisis cramming just beforehand.  I avoided the drudgery of original texts and focuses on short summary review articles to get the gist. Wikipedia has been my saviour in recent years, but in the old days you had to be inventive to avoid having to read multiple turgid textbooks, reading abstracts of related articles instead. My attention in class or lectures would wander off after a few minutes unless the teacher was particularly good. I developed  the discipline of writing copious notes - which I rarely consulted again - just to try and keep my attention focused.

Generalizing from my own experience, I suspect many boys simply aren't cut out for sitting quietly in class or lectures and directing their attention in one direction. In later years Powerpoint was my saviour because I couldn't remember what I had heard, but always remembered what I had seen. Hence I wrote everything down. I also had to learn the skills of reading, empathizing, and sympathizing with other people - it didn't come easily to me - and I always sought out people who seemed to have far more emotional intelligence and networking skills than I.

I was fortunate in my working life in that I never had a routine or operational job - which would have killed me. Everything was about imagining a better future and managing change projects whether in business process design, organisation, or new technology. I was fortunate in working for a company that was then very good at finding square holes for square pegs. A lot of very unorthodox people there thrived.

I had two outstanding mangers who recognised in me skills that they didn't have themselves, and, far from being offended or threatened, encouraged me to develop them to the max. They ensured I got the limelight and credit even if they had prepared the ground for me, secure in the knowledge that their subordinate doing well reflected well on them as the manager.

This meant my name was always on the list whenever the business decided it needed a new strategy or change the way we did something in a radical way, whether it be in production technology, service provision, business process design, management structure or employee rewards. In the end they got very good value from me and I was rewarded accordingly. Very few people could have been so lucky.

So, in answer Arnold's question, girls are very different from boys, but so are many boys and girls very different from each other. We all have different ways of learning and developing, and our one size fits all education systems of class and lecture rooms suit very few in an optimal way.

In my view, the rash of ADHT and other diagnoses growing exponentially at the moment arises at least in part from the increased pressures to conform to a set of behaviours which are actually very unnatural in the context of human evolution. You can't even get an interview these days to get onto the employment ladder without a rash of formal qualifications to your name which may say little about your natural proclivities and abilities. A lot of very creative people are slipping through the net. More are committing suicide.

I used to tease my late wife that she learned far more in the college cafeteria than she ever did at lectures (which she rarely attended) and I adored the emotional intelligence she had to play to her strengths. In later years our personalities appeared to merge and pass each other out as I became more sociable and she rather less so. We can change, but it can take a very long time.

The best teams are made of people with complementary skills and personalities and a lot of my success as a manager in later life was down to identifying not only the technical skills, but the mix of personality types which were necessary to bring a complex project to a successful conclusion. We can learn and change but it can take a lifetime to do so, and we expect an awful lot of our kids at a very young age sometimes.

We can't be everything to everybody so my advice is to find out what you enjoy and work hard to become very good at that - and that may or may not involve sitting in a classroom and getting formal qualifications. With luck opportunities will come your way that allow you to make the most of your skills. The world out there is nothing like as uniform as a very standardized educational system would have you believe.

And that teacher who tripped me up? He became an international rugby referee, but not a very good one and his career came to a swift end when he handled a test match very badly.  His authoritarian personality did not sit well with mature adults. Serves him right!

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Girls have aways been high achievers as their maturity growing up is ahead of boys. Causing a challenge for the a latter and either compete or go astray in extracurricular activities outside the classroom. Boys need a balance in male tutors what we do not see in Dutch grammar school ... in high school boys and girls need a personalized "tailor-made" curriculum that is not offered. The Dutch used to have excellent vocational school which offered talented craftsmen a pathway towards higher income. Germany still has this and the economy has profited well.

The second generation Moroccan  youth clearly differentiates with higher scholastics for girls (languages and reading comprehension) where boys would do so much better offered handicrafts as they fail in present curriculum offered.

Early Childhood Behavior Problems and the Gender Gap in Educational Attainment in the United States | June 2016 |

Why do men in the United States today complete less schooling than women?

One reason may be gender differences in early self-regulation and pro-social behaviors. Scholars have found that boys' early behavioral disadvantage predicts their lower average academic achievement during elementary school.

In this study, I examine longer-term effects: do these early behavioral differences predict boys' lower rates of high school graduation, college enrollment and graduation, and fewer years of schooling completed in adulthood? If so, through what pathways are they linked?

I leverage a nationally representative sample of children born in the 1980s to women in their early-to-mid-20s and followed into adulthood. I use decomposition and path analytic tools to show that boys' higher average levels of behavior problems at age 4 to 5 years help explain the current gender gap in schooling by age 26 to 29, controlling for other observed early childhood factors. In addition, I find that early behavior problems predict outcomes more for boys than for girls. Early behavior problems matter for adult educational attainment because they tend to predict later behavior problems and lower achievement.

Wow ... how I could spend days theorizing about education [backward schooling system] and the gender gap I have observed during some 65+ years.

It has neve bothered me in the early 1960s in US high schools ... graduated in the upper 10th percentile ... the super smart guys were usually close friends ... no nerds as often the scholars were super achievers in a variety of sports programs. The combination offered them college scholarships ... the very best top pupil a girl, as were the majority in top ten. She was a sweet and kind (red haired) girl  ... she may have been offered a scholarship, however due to deprivation and poverty she had to earn a living for the family and got a local job in rural Missouri, well St. Louis County.

Years later as colleges and universities began to invest deeply in sports achievements, the bum "scholars" in high school got a sweet deal to sign on and follow some low level college curriculum to keep them afloat until a professional team signed them on for big money. Stardom took its toll as a high school student as we have witnessed too often ...

2 Ohio teen football players found guilty of rape | CBC - 17 March 2013 |

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Mar 11th, 2025 at 07:26:01 PM EST
Before emigrating to the US as a war refugee of sorts, the last year of grammar school (6th grade) was a classroom of 50 pupils with a coal burning stove in the rear to keep us warm ... that clearly  was not the case. The aftermath of ruins and devastation from the German occupation 1940-45 until liberation above the rivers by Canadians and Poles.

In America we were at least a year ahead in our education so I skipped 8th grade to go a year ahead to high school after passing the entrance exam. Never got my grammar school "degree" ☹ ... in high school I was well ahead especially in higher math, but in language I scored well too. Always enjoyed education and many of my highly qualified teachers of all genders (nuns included).

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Mar 11th, 2025 at 07:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never seen nuns listed as a separate gender before, but it makes sense. In the old days of fully enclosed habits, it was difficult to tell whether they had wheels or legs...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Mar 11th, 2025 at 11:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In California there were some tutoring experiments to increase student performance in social deprived schools due to poverty. The results were quite amazing I recall, and illustrates how much room there is to adapt the method offered to fit the pupil. Start at a very young age ... eagerness to learn.

Educating the Whole Child: Improving School Climate to Support Student Success

New knowledge about human development from neuroscience and the sciences of learning and
development demonstrates that effective learning depends on secure attachments; affirming
relationships; rich, hands-on learning experiences; and explicit integration of social, emotional,
and academic skills. A positive school environment supports students' growth across all the
developmental pathways--physical, psychological, cognitive, social, and emotional--while it
reduces stress and anxiety that create biological impediments to learning. Such an environment
takes a "whole child" approach to education, seeking to address the distinctive strengths, needs,
and interests of students as they engage in learning.



'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:08:19 PM EST
Losing sanity ...

I was quite amazed how a few centuries ago the talented geniuses had a very broad scope of knowledge from culture, arts as well as the sciences. Today we quite often see scientists go deep after specialization. I often witness how quite talented persons can be very "unwise" ... in Dutch we have a saying of "farmers' wisdom" where in rural areas farmers in their trade have a different view on society, perhaps some metaphysical intuition.

Intelligence is not a scale of wisdom

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cognitive Apprenticeship
Making Thinking Visible

In ancient times, teaching and learning were accomplished through apprenticeship: We taught our children how to speak, grow crops, craft cabinets, or tailor clothes by showing them how and by helping them do it. Apprenticeship was the vehicle for transmitting the knowledge required for expert practice in fields from painting and sculpting to medicine and law. It was the natural way to learn. In modern times, apprenticeship has largely been replaced by formal schooling, except in children's learning of language, in some aspects of graduate education, and in on-the-job training. We propose an alternative model of instruction that is accessible within the framework of the typical American classroom. It is a model of instruction that goes back to apprenticeship but incorporates elements of schooling. We call this model "cognitive apprenticeship" (Collins, Brown, and Newman, 1989).

While there are many differences between schooling and apprenticeship methods, we will focus on one. In apprenticeship, learners can see the processes of work: They watch a parent sow, plant, and harvest crops and help as they are able; they assist a tradesman as he crafts a cabinet; they piece together garments under the supervision of a more experienced tailor. Apprenticeship involves learning a physical, tangible activity. But in schooling, the "practice" of problem solving, reading comprehension, and writing is not at all obvious--it is not necessarily observable to the student. In apprenticeship, the processes of the activity are visible. In schooling, the processes of thinking are often invisible to both the students and the teacher. Cognitive apprenticeship is a model of instruction that works to make thinking visible.



'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:12:26 PM EST
Published by International Development Research Centre, Ottawa, ON, Canada ... the soon to be incorporated 51st State of the Union. *) perhaps in a swap acceptable to Russia the Donbas for Alaska with Canada and Greenland to Trump's MAGA USA. Dividing the Arctic resources between Putin and Trump. Of course nothing can compete with Trump's fanciful grasp of Geopolitics today.

Culture, Spirituality, and Economic Development: Opening a Dialogue | IDRC William Ryan - 1995 |

During IDRC's first 25 years, development theorizing has progressed beyond economic parameters based on gross domestic product (GDP) per capita growth and even the conventional social indicators of literacy, life expectancy, and caloric intake for measuring development. Interventionist frameworks now regularly include such dimensions as sustainable environmental practices, gender equity, respect for human rights, and participatory governance.

Too often, however, these are dealt with as overlays, add-ons to a core notion based on change in material well-being. A certain level of material well-being is, of course, necessary for human development. To take material inputs as the point of departure for external intervention, however, is to adopt from the outset a unidimensional perspective of humanness which will in turn distort one's notion of development. To take into account the multiple dimensions of development, recent literature is using a different, more comprehensive, and/or subjective language. Within IDRC, it has been suggested that development is "change that improves the conditions of human well-being so that people can exercise meaningful choices for their own benefit and that of society."

This is an attractive definition, in that it enables one to recognize both North and South as "developing countries", not limiting the conditions of human well-being or choices to the conventional economic or social ones. Moreover, it highlights the links between individual and societal decisions for change.

Today for sustainability the circular economy is promising if the effort and work is unleashed by normalized capitalism to keep society in mind.

Oops ... wait a second, we have no funds available, just signed on for war powers and deliverance of €800bn to the Military Industrial Complex, European style ... for more peace ☹ ... as the planet burns.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:17:30 PM EST
I am of the generation that switched from analog to digital technology. Indeed the analog computers at McDonnell Space Technology in St. Louis were fun to program 😊

In the Netherlands, education is a hobby of politicians as we see in America, specifically in the State of Florida today.

Dear Minister of Education ...

June 9, 2010. The Netherlands elects a new parliament. Elections in which education is an important topic. A new minister (or state secretary) of education wants better quality education because that is very important to our country. Plans are being made for that. Plans that concern us: millions of students in the Netherlands.' This is how the explanation of the BMVO initiative begins ...

[...]

The introductory film is heart-warming: a group of teenagers explain what the intention is. And a few films have already been submitted. These films are somewhat similar: pupils express their wishes in one-liners. They ask for respect, for less punishment, for a better canteen, starting later, good care in case of lesson cancellations, etc. It takes a bit of searching, but I was struck by a boy who thought that you should also get French or German at VMBO basics/kader. Hear, hear.

* VMBO: four years of intermediate preparatory vocational education (low level)

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:18:42 PM EST
Student protest Amsterdam in 1969

Occupation and evacuation of the University Building in Amsterdam

Austerity measures Minister Deetman Labour Party in 1986

The 1986 university sports relay strike in revolt against cuts in higher education and sports

Rise and fall of the comprehensive school idea in the Netherlands. Political and educational debates on the Middle School project (1969-1993)

CHAOS today as costs skyrocket ... free market and introduction a level of "manager" in schools as student performance slides backward on basics language, reading comprehension and math ...

So a new coalition ... we will revise the curriculum methodology and no more indoctrination, but our own.

New coalition presents plans for education (renewal)

Participation in spending money

Furthermore, they want to stop the `wild growth of subsidies'. They want to convert these into solid structural financing. They also want school leaders and teachers to have a say in how this money is spent. The parties want to promote that the educational offer, in city and countryside, can be reached within a reasonable travel time. Teaching methods must be proven effective and `politically neutral' according to the parties. What this means in concrete terms is not clear.



'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2025 at 01:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't say I had a standard education since I grew up in the sort of Hickville that was in a decided minority even then and has since faded to near extinction, but the guys I went to school with didn't punt 12 years of free education just because the school didn't provide them with boy-oriented teaching methods.  No, they failed because they didn't care.  And they didn't care because they were convinced their white male entitlement was all they needed.  "I don't need that math/science/history/etc. crap 'cause I'm just gonna work on the farm/in the mill/in the plant/at the brickyard/etc."  Jobs that now either no longer exist or don't pay enough to live on.  And as those jobs went away, they didn't have the educations needed to change.  And all those new jobs were hiring people people who had taken all those dumb math and science and history classes.  But all they could see was that people were getting hired who didn't look like them.  And the Reagan voters were born, eventually turning into Trump voters, who passed the sense of entitlement to their sons, who whined about schools not treating them right and then about employers not treating them right and now vote for Trump just like Dear Old Dad.
by rifek on Wed Mar 19th, 2025 at 01:16:10 AM EST
Have they?

I can relate to those circumstances, grew up in the 50s ... poverty post WWII ... emigrated to America ... expected cowboys and Indians ... family in rural area, a two room shack ... no running water or sewer facilities, just electricity ... for a kid lessons to survive ...   missed much due to hardship ... saw too much violence, war and insecurity ... have been extremely fortunate ... lived the "American Dream, by remigrating to Europe. Married, children, managing to get around, not in wealth but simple gratitude and happiness.

California and the call to Go West Young Man 😂 Damn good business ... from actor to president ... one ends war, another opens Pandora Box. People suffer ...

My new diary ...

Ukraine Victory In Retreat

Lived through the Cuban missile crisis and the JFK assassination in a hostile Dallas. A precursor to the double assassinations in 1968. Evil is like weed ... survives.

In rural communities friends are true friends ... nor so in the over populated big cities ... good memories of Arkansas, south of the border of the Show Me state

Watched the Arch of St. Louis being build. The poverty stricken neighborhood near Union Station was flattened ... destruction of a community ... created the Pruitt Towers project ... no jobs, more crime. Was denied entry to a parochial school in downtown St. Louis ... I was too white 🤣

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 19th, 2025 at 12:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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